Dr Justin Sledge JS: All right everybody, it’s great to be back on another Esoterica Livestream. I’m doing these more frequently now, just because and some people have asked like if you’re doing this more frequently, someone asked in the comments, are you doing this because you’re building up a secret cabal and the answer is no. It’s not secret, it’s just a regular cabal. It just actually happens to be that I really like hanging out with my friends and colleagues and one of my earliest friends and colleagues, that I’ve made on the channel, who’s a really… Angela, you’re a really dear friend of mine and I really am so… of all the things that have happened because of this channel, one of my absolute happy things that have happened because this channel was having met you.
So, folks, I’m really happy to be joined by Dr Angela Puca over from Angela’s Symposium which, if you’re watching on the live and you haven’t subscribed to Dr Puca, make sure you go and subscribe to her channel and check out her Patreon where she actually does give really good Patreon exclusive stuff, really cool lectures and things like that are unique to her Patreon so make sure to go check out our Patreon as well. But Angela, thank you for coming and hanging out with me and being my friend and being my colleague.
Dr Angela Puca AP: Oh, you’re so sweet Justin. Thank you also for inviting me over and for being my friend and yes, Justin and I have been hanging out privately, quite frequently since we both started the channels. So yeah, it’s definitely one of the things that I very much appreciate about being on YouTube, that I get to meet people like Justin and you get new friends and you do collaborations and you learn from each other because obviously everybody has a different expertise and I think that united we are stronger, even in terms of knowledge because you cannot know everything and you learn more things, thanks to others and even more in terms of methodology because depending on the thing that you study, you will use a different methodology.
JS: Now I think it’s that’s one of the really fun things about hanging out with you and other folks, you know, with Andrew and Filip and Zevi and Dan, I think what people probably wouldn’t know is actually how different we are in terms of our methodologies, in terms of our philosophy, philosophical backgrounds and how we think about problems and think about all this stuff. I think it’s really great how different we all are and it’s also really great that none of that gets in the way of us being friends and you know, we’re colleagues whether we like it or not but we’re friends because we actually do like each other and we can all hang out and…
AP: Yes, sometimes, sometimes I feel like you and I are like the polar opposites. When we have conversations it’s like I’m on one side and you’re completely on the opposite side but I think that we have conversations that enrich us both. At least I feel enriched after having a conversation with you. So it’s not, I think, that these are situations… it’s, you know, a privilege having a conversation – especially with somebody that has a different way of thinking. But you don’t have that sort of converse… you know, confrontational kind of approach like I have to convince you that I’m in the right. The, you know, that kind of attitude. But you and I, coming from a philosophical background, we are more about trying to, you know, extrapolate and investigate and unravel what is behind every single thought and every single ideology, rather than just saying oh, this is right and this is wrong or it’s more, you know, it’s more complex than that. And as academics, we like our nuances and complexities that’s one of the landmarks.
JS: No, for sure and it’s… yeah and also, I guess I’ve been around enough and I’m sure this is true for your philosophical training as well, it’s just being around enough of… and it’s mostly men but all these people, men who think they have it all figured out and they’re more than happy to beat you into submission to make you believe what they believe and just how absolutely – what’s the right word? Just the jackasses, it just, it never works.
AP: It’s a technical term.
JS: A technical term, yeah.
AP: A very academic term.
JS: And how embarrassing it is. Like I remember being that guy when I was 20 years old and just being like, yeah, I’m glad I’m not that guy anymore.
AP: Yeah, you reminded me that when I was doing, you know, that my Bachelor’s and my Master’s and in Philosophy and my PhD is in Religious Studies, Anthropology Of Religion to be more precise. But when I was doing philosophy as an undergrad all the other students were men and they were saying oh, why are you studying philosophy, you know, haven’t you realized that all the philosophers in history are men?
JS: So yeah, no it’s funny because even that way we’re opposite too right because my Master’s is in Religious Studies my PhD is in Philosophy. So even that way we went…
AP: Kind of in different ways.
JS: Crossways. So, but yeah it’s… I don’t know, but anyway like I said, that it’s just really great that we, you know, got to know each other and we could work together on this really cool platform to provide good education. When I think people are really interested in that and if we weren’t doing it then it would just be filled with all kinds of people who are way less good looking than us.
AP: Of course. Well, I can definitely tell you that I get a lot of comments on my looks but…
JS: Yeah, I don’t know, yeah, I don’t get… I do get comments on my beard but it’s only from here down that people care about, there’s not much to talk about from there up.
AP: Well then I will be the one leaving you a comment on your looks to balance things out.
JS: I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.
A couple of super stickers have come through. Thank you Jeanette for the super sticker and for supporting it.
AP: Thank you, Jeanette.
JS: Yeah, for supporting the channel.
Oflameo, we get our first super chat question and there’s a couple more that have come through. So I want to make sure to get them. So Hard Polytheism or Soft Polytheism? This is a question for you, Angela.
AP: Yeah, I made a video on that. So I’m not sure if this, yeah, I think that Oflameo also follows my channel because I remember the name. But yeah, I made a video on Hard Polytheism and Soft Polytheism. This is something that is being discussed recently among Pagan Studies Scholars. So the question is, which model is used in academia? Both models are used. So Soft Polytheism tends to describe a belief in the Gods that is more symbolic, in a way, so that the Gods are considered to be archetypes of the psyche or there is more of a psychologising of the understanding of the Gods. So they are not ontologically real outside of yourself. They may be real but in a looser sense. Whereas for a Hard Polytheist the Gods are actually objectively real, just as I am and they are completely outside of me. So this is the difference between – to make it simple but I have a whole video on that if you want to get more details. So both models are used in academia and they came more from studies on Heathenry. And now I think that it seems to be a useful, two useful categories, I guess, to understand the phenomenon. But yeah, I think that, for instance, in Heathenry, you have more of a hard polytheistic approach generally, whereas in Wicca and other forms of Eclectic Pagan Witchcraft you tend to see Soft Polytheism as being more prevalent. And that comes from Crowley as well because everybody hates Crowley but contemporary Esotericism has a lot, you know, there are a lot of things that derive from Crowley. So I know that I’m wearing the unicursal hexagram, it may sound like I’m sort of an advocate for Crowley but I’m not. I’m just acknowledging the influence.
JS: I mean it’s funny that between… Zebby has been on this like Maimonides kick for the past forever, like all these Maimonides videos and you’re like on this Crowley kick and it’s when they’re like all right guys it’s like how long is it going to be until it becomes Dr Angela Puca’s Aleister Crowley channel?
AP: No, I’m gonna do something. Well, I did a video on Rosicrucianism.
JS: That’s true, yeah. So…
AP: It really depends what I’m researching on. I will definitely have more videos on Hekate and Lucifer because I’m going to, I have to do research for two papers that I have to give at two academic conferences in June, July and so I will use that kind of research to make videos. Which is what I normally do, you know…
JS: Of course, you have to make everything, do five jobs. Why do any work at all if it can’t do five things for you?
It’s also a great super chat from Pete, Pete and I have been studying some Simone Weil privately and he says those misogynist philosophy students should read some Simone Weil.
AP: Yes.
JS: I think all philosophy students should be reading some Simone Weil. I really… just what a fascinating and powerful woman she was and it’s been great to catch up with her. Have you ever read much Simone Weil, Angela?
AP: Yeah, yeah.
JS: Yeah, she’s, I find her to be endlessly interesting, endlessly interesting. Here’s a good question…
AP: Lately, lately as a female philosopher I’ve been reading Simone de Beauvoir.
JS: Oh, yeah.
AP: I find her quite interesting as well.
JS: I teach her, I teach “The Second Sex” in my race, sex and religion class, which is great. This is a question for you Angela and for me, I can maybe say something about this but; when’s your book coming out Angela? We talked about this privately.
AP: Ah… yes.
JS: Explain who you’ll be publishing with… confess!
AP Yeah, I know, I was trying to… I had to do a coming out with Justin. So I was really scared of announcing to him that I will publish with Brill. So he still likes me after that. So…
JS: No, we all have to bend the knee to the god, I mean literally folks. Folks may not know this but if you want to publish in a Western Esotericism it’s either Brill or Brill, in many ways. You can publish in the Ares Journal which is Brill or you can publish in the Brill which is Brill. And I know I give Brill a hard time and I hope that one day they will sponsor my channel and sponsor Angela’s channel because we have certainly sent people in their direction. But I know that I hate on them but I hate on them because… I think they do a great job, I just wish that they would buy one of those like print-on-demand machines and they could just you could buy a cheap version of a book as opposed to whatever. But Angela you have a book coming out with Brill, right?
AP: Yes, it will be my PhD dissertation turned into a book. So I will be working on that over the summer. I’m not sure exactly when the, you know, the publication date will be because, of course, it depends on, well, me actually meeting the deadline first. And then afterwards there’s going to be the peer-review process and then after that because, you know, when you have academic publications they go through peer review. Then I will have to apply the, you know, the comments, amendments that are requested by reviewer one and the hated reviewer two. For some reason, reviewer-two is always the worst and so every time that I…
JS: Sacrifice the goat.
AP: Every time that I have to publish something and I get the reviews back. It’s like, oh okay, let’s see what reviewer two says. But yeah, so academic books take a lot of time because of the lengthiness of the peer-review process but hopefully, I don’t know, next year I hope by the end of next year.
JS: The end of next year. Okay yeah, it takes a while. Yeah, when people say that, you know, I have a book coming out with an academic publisher I’m like okay, I’ll look for it in my next reincarnation. So, but anyway, congratulations that’s really great to have your dis published and yeah, that’s really, that’s really fantastic. For me book-wise I’m in early talks with a publisher I really admire about doing a book. So we’re still sketching it out, what it’ll look like but yeah, I’m in the early processes of that as well. And I just got back from Reboot which is sort of a Jewish arts and culture thing in beautiful Utah, which I felt terrible, Angela as a religious study scholar I went to Utah and did zero Mormon stuff. Like I really wanted to like go do some LDS sightseeing and I just really find the LDS church really fascinating. I find Joseph Smith fascinating. I’ve read like the “Book of Mormon” and the “Doctrine and Covenants” and the “Pearl of Great Price” and all that stuff. So I didn’t get to do anything. So next time I go back I told them I’m going a day early so I can go do LDS stuff. I’ve even gone on like pilgrimages to like LDS sites in New York. I went to Joseph Smith’s birthplace and had just a really, really great… the Elders there are really kind and yeah, they’re really great. So yeah, so anyway at the Reboot I pitched a book and they got pretty interested in it.
AP: Congratulations.
JS: So yeah, we’ll see what it looks like.
AP: What it’s going to be on?
JS: So this is the book pitch and we’ll see where it goes from there. And I’m not ruling anything but what I was thinking about doing is I’d like to take a lot of the Jewish magical texts that exist, the Jewish magical technologies that exist and I’d like to actually work with a couple of Practitioners to generate a book that’s basically an anthology of that stuff, that’s some combination of scholarship and making that stuff available for Jewish Practitioners. So it’d be something much more popular.
AP: A little bit like Stephen Skinner?
JS: A little bit like that, yeah. But I couldn’t do the practitioner stuff because I don’t have any background in that and I don’t want to do that frankly. But I just want to… I feel like so much of interesting Jewish magic stuff exists and I think there are a lot of people who are really interested in that on the Jewish side of things but don’t have access to it. And so because they don’t want to go buy a $400 Brill book about, you know…
AP: Again hating on Brill.
JS: Hey, I’m not saying they can’t buy a $400 Brill book. I’m not saying that that it shouldn’t be $400 but no, I am saying that should not be $400 but…
AP: Well, the poor authors don’t get much out of it.
JS: And if some of that were going to the authors and that would be a very different story. If you guys were building your mansions with your Brill publishing I’d be more okay with it. But, so at any rate that’s kind of what is in the mix for me but I think it’s going to be also 2025 or so who knows when that’ll see the light of day. Although I guess, I when I do start writing, I write pretty fast. So we’ll see what happens. I don’t know, I work pretty fast when I do work, all right.
AP: But I do like Brill.
JS: You do? I like real too. I like, I again, I just, it’s my beef is not that they exist, my beef is that they’re… it’s a weird thing to make stuff accessible in any, in every other way than financially accessible because even people that have… you can check these books out from a library but then you usually require some degree of like university access or something like that. So I just wish that they were a little bit more accessible. Like just even if the PDFs were a little cheaper because even the PDFs, so these books can be two, three hundred dollars.
AP: So I guess it depends on the book as well.
JS: Yeah.
AP: Yeah but usually I get them from the library or through university affiliation.
JS: Right, ditto. I never, I can’t buy these books, I just use the IOL and get them via the interlibrary loan.
So some folks in the chat are mentioning the LDS but yeah, I’m also watching “Under the Banner of Heaven” right now which is sort of touches on…
AP: What is it?
JS: It’s like a murder mystery. I think it’s based on a true story that takes place in LDS-country in Utah that has a lot to do with the relationship of the Latter Day Saints movement with its own past, which is interesting. And also the intersection with the fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints Church which is interesting. I mean this is an interesting thing to me, in general, how religions relate to their past especially when that past is very different than their present. That is a thing that like, I think about that in Judaism. How like this religion, that I am a part of, at some point was only based in one place and killed a bunch of animals to make it work and now we don’t do that anymore. It’s just interesting how religions, our religions change or don’t and how they deal with, how they perceive that change and this in the LDS churches, you know, that perception is complicated. But I guess it’s complicated in lots of religions.
So yeah, another yeah 1/100th of a Brill book. Thank you, yeah, we could all use a little bit of money for our Brill books.
Patrick, thank you so much. Yeah and this is a question neither one of us… well, I can certainly answer for me but how’s your study and practice of Magick led to your success for both of you?
AP: You can go first.
JS: I can go first. I can say that the study of Magic has led to my success but the practice of it hasn’t because I don’t practice any Magic. So I think if I had not studied Magic then I couldn’t make the episodes that I do about Magic but I don’t practice any Magic. So I don’t know what to what degree that’s led to my success. Maybe I’d be more successful if I did but I don’t practice any Magic.
AP: For me. Well, as those who follow my channel know, I don’t publicly say whether I am a practitioner or not. So I will not answer the second part of the question, I guess. But yeah, I even in my case, you know, the main reason why I have the YouTube channel and the main driver and is the content which is about the study of Magick. And I guess it can also be helpful for Practitioners. But yeah, I would say that so the question is how does the study of Magick lead to my success? I don’t know. I guess that there are people that say that my content, it makes digestible things that would be, otherwise, very complicated to understand and I think that’s the same for Justin. Justin also makes very digestible and very easy to understand things that would be otherwise quite complex and require a lot of reading and a lot of background context. And in my case, one of the reasons, one of the things that I wanted to do with my YouTube channel was to disseminate academic scholarship on the topic.
So my content is based on academic peer-reviewed sources and that is because I just wanted to let people know that there is research going on in universities when it comes to Western Esotericism, Magick, the Occult, and Paganism. And especially at first, a lot of people were actually surprised that these were, you know, academic papers or that there was actual research being done in universities and that was an inspiration for me as well. So, I think that’s also why I wanted to do that. And also because I want to give credit to the other scholars in the field because it’s a small field, it’s very difficult to be an academic. And another reason, again is that I think that for Magick Practitioners it might be difficult to access peer-reviewed material and since I have access to it because I’m an academic and I have a university affiliation, then I can allow the public to have access to that kind of knowledge that would be otherwise precluded. So there are many reasons why I have chosen that kind of methodology for the content of my videos. I’m not sure whether it’s always going to be like that but for now, that’s the methodology that I chose.
JS: Yeah, I think you and I both are interested in this and trying to do more bridging of academic work and like, academics talking to Practitioners in both ways. Like, I’m interested in that as well. I had a really good conversation with Denis from Foolish Fish and I think it’s an interesting kind of… Yeah, it’s funny because in many ways we keep our work completely separate but we obviously rely on each other. There’d be no way that you could do your work without there being Practitioners out there and there could be no way that, I think in many cases Practitioners rely on academic publications to fill out their practice. So it’s a really interesting, it’s a really interesting balancing act.
Wow, Jean-Luc Picard, thank you for the super chat. I wonder if you’re really Jean-Luc Picard, like from Star Trek. But so, Angela I have a question for you that’s not about your religious beliefs or your appearance. We could talk about our hair care routines, your actual hair and yeah – but, my question actually is about, sort of, maybe a behind-the-veil question and that’s sort of, what kind of content, on your channel, do you enjoy making the most? We kind of know what will get us clicks, at least kind of, right, I think that anytime I make anything about demons or whatever, the Lesser Key of Solomon, people really respond to that for whatever reason. But it’s funny because I make an episode about medieval Christian mystic women that I’m really interested in and no one cares. But what kind of stuff do you find the most enjoyable in terms of producing content on your channel?
AP: Yeah, well first thing that comes to mind is that from my analytics I can tell you that demons and Satan win over sex because I also have videos on sex magic and sacred kink and these kinds of things and they are also popular but demons always win and Satan always wins, even on sex, so it’s interesting, you know, the things that are popular. So the kind of content that I prefer to create, I guess, it’s what I’m currently researching. So, for me it’s – and I also really like philosophy, so just like you, I really enjoy the philosophical underlying elements, you know, the philosophical framework that underlies a specific practice. So sometimes I’d like to make more content on that but I think it wouldn’t be as popular. So I tend to discuss those kinds of things more with my Patrons.
But I think that I generally prefer the kind of content that is about my current research. So when I was doing my PhD because when I started my YouTube channel I was in the last year of my PhD. I was making a lot of content on my PhD which was on Shamanism and Italian Witchcraft or, you know, other things that are that were a bit tangent to that. Because, of course, a PhD certification is quite a big endeavour and so you will have different side researches that you will be doing for your project and so in some cases there were things that I wouldn’t include in my PhD thesis, in my dissertation. In England they say thesis but I know that in the US you can say PhD dissertation. In the UK dissertation is an undergraduate thing so that’s why I confuse the terms. So yeah, I think the content that I like to make the most is whatever I’m researching at the time. And well, now I’m making a lot of content on Aleister Crowley but I will soon be making more content on Lucifer and Hekate. So we will see whether Lucifer matches up with Satan and demons or whether there’s a difference there.
JS: That’s true. It’s also funny. I’ve also been, I mean not making content about it but I’ve also been in Aleister Crowley land as well like independently of… we have this weird thing folks, where sometimes we’re independently doing the same things and not know it.
AP: It’s a Zeitgeist of YouTube.
JS: It might be something like that but I’ve been reading the Kozinski biography of Aleister Crowley for a while now. Which I think is a little too soft on Crowley personally, I think it’s a little too soft but it is really… which is good for me because I’m really hard on Aleister Crowley, so it’s good to have a more of a sympathetic approach to him. But I was going to do an episode on the “Book of the Law” this past April during the time period where it was revealed to Crowley but I didn’t get around to it. But next year.
AP: We could do a collaboration doing something on Crowley.
JS: We should, yeah we should maybe… and like I said I want to do one on the “Book of the Law” and I bought the Thelema holy books, it’s a really great beautiful edition out that comes like, bound in leather and it looks kind of like an old school Bible, which is nice. Although I can’t make heads nor tails of them half the time, like most channelled things.
It’s a question for you Angela from Gothik Extravaganza; Iphigenia she’s from the Iliad right?
AP: Yeah. Is there a Roman equivalent of Iphigenia? I’m not sure.
JS: I just know she’s in the Iliad, that’s all I know, no sorry.
AP: No, I’m sorry.
JS: Here’s another follow-up question that’s just funny. Do we do a live stream in the catacombs and it’d be hard to get Wi-Fi down there?
AP: Yes.
JS: And who else would you bring with, who would you love to do a live stream in the catacombs with?
AP: With you of course.
[Laughter]
JS: Yeah, that’d be fun. Like I said it’d be hard to get Wi-Fi down there. Have you ever been down to the catacombs in Paris?
AP: No, I’ve been in Paris a few times but I don’t think, no I haven’t been in the catacombs.
JS: We should… next time we should plan to go to Paris and go visit… they’re really neat, I mean it is really impressive to see all those people.
This is like Dr John Dee mentions “four illustrious men of philosophy who were astonished by the great miracle of the Monas Heiroglyphica.”
Yeah, he does mention them and he never says who they were. Some of his Paris people I think. I think it’s the band Tool. At least it’s the drummer. Thoughts on occult music.
Angela, do you listen to much in the way of like occult-inspired music?
AP: Well yeah, there is occult-inspired music among Italian Pagans but I think Pagans in general. There are quite a few musicians that are popular. Well, you have the Inkubus Sukkubus for instance. They have a lot of songs on Gods and Goddesses and the Witch’s Chant, I think it’s called, it’s very much used in pagan rituals. Then you have Loreena McKennitt, she is also quite popular among pagans. The Fields of the Nephilim, they have occult-themed music then there’s Therion which is clearly inspired by (unintelligible), Therion the band, they are kind of symphonic metal a symphonic-metal band and there’s an album called Gothic Kabbalah, yeah, it’s really intense. My favourite song is called Perennial Sofia which is, you know, perennial knowledge. Yeah, there’s a ton actually but I’m not sure if DMTurner is referring to the use of music in the Occult, in Magic or occult music but so…
JS: Yeah, yeah, I wonder like bands like Heilung in the sort of heathen world.
AP: Yeah that’s another band that is famous.
JS: Yeah, that’s like one thing I constantly lament to my partner is the lack of really cool Jewish music that’s like intense. We just have the crappiest music most of the time. It’s like it’s not… I just want like Heilung but Jewish, the Jewish version of Heilung or Wardruna or something and it doesn’t exist.
AP: You could start a band, Justin.
JS: I could start a band, yeah.
AP: You need to fill up the gap.
JS: Exactly. Yeah, you meet me in corpse…
AP: I know that you are a metal head so you have it in you, come on.
JS: Yeah, I have no musical talent whatsoever – unlike you.
AP: Thank you.
JS: I would just play everything really badly through like a Fisher-Price speaker. Saying that it’s like really it’s… I’m being cult. I’m really being true to the black metal form by making it sound as crappy as possible to cover up the fact that I can’t play any instruments.
AP: Yeah, I loved being in a metal band because I like to perform and I kind of go, I go completely wild when I perform. So that’s fun. You know.
JS: You get to like, yeah, I can see that you get to drop all your inhibitions on your own stage in some way and kind of channel – channel the Muses. But yeah, I’m trying to get any occult music I’ve listened to recently that I… and I can’t think of anything. I will say this, someone on another live stream recommended a black metal band called BlackBraid and I looked them up they’re like a Native American black metal band and they only have two songs out but there but it’s really amazing. So I will say that.
AP: There’s also an Italian pagan folk, music band and they are both friends of mine, and they come from the Neapolitan area as well and it’s called Emian, Emian PaganFolk and they also make a sort of pagan-themed music with the harp and the violin. It’s very folk, kind, yeah Celtic sound…
JS: … with the hurdy-gurdy?
AP: Yeah also that one, yeah.
JS: I love the hurdy-gurdy.
AP: Oh yeah, they both play different instruments, so it’s quite amazing.
JS: Yeah there’s a young woman from Germany on the YouTube that I listen to who plays the hurdy-gurdy.
So Grand Master Glick, wow, thank you for the big super chat. Crowley in a past life we should talk about it. For a hundred bucks I would happily talk to anybody who wants to be, who says they’re Crowley in a past life. I would definitely want to be Crowley in a past life and not Crowley in this life. It seems like Crowley had, in many ways, had a pretty adventurous life but also a pretty like, tragic one. It’s amazing just how many people around him, like, died and I think he had a hard life in a lot of ways.
Let’s see, thoughts on Carl Jung in history.
AP: Oh God, Justin. I know what you think about that.
JS: I think the red book is really interesting I haven’t I have not read it very closely, I have to say. I mean look, I’m not on team Jung and there’s…. I don’t make any like bones about it in terms of like… I don’t hide it. I know that you’re supposed to be all on if you’re in the occult world you have to be on team Jung and that people love him and I’m not like I’m on like team Lacan. So, I do think that what is interesting about Jung is that… I’m sorry I’m putting this… there’s a whole group of scholars from the 20th century that I really admire and that’s like Henri Corbin, Jung some of the folks associated with like Eranos and things like that… I admire them because they were pretty daring thinkers. That is to say, they were willing to do the academic work but also be very open to the possibility there was knowledge to be had outside of academia through some kind of mystical or otherwise non-rational way of knowing. And what I find interesting and brave about that and why I think they remain perennially interesting is because they were really produced a lot of really interesting novel things, both in their academic careers but also in their non-academic wisdom-seeking path. So I really admire that about people like Jung and Henri Corbin and other people who were sort of willing to be on the inside and the outside.
So I’d admire that but you know when I read the stuff and Jung on Alchemy and stuff it’s just historically wrong. And so I’m like, it’s interesting but he just misreads Alchemists because he doesn’t understand what they’re actually talking about. And that’s not his fault, none of us did until basically the mid 20th century where the history, the historiographic analysis of alchemical texts really began. And I’ll give one example of this case in point Adam Mclean. Adam Mclean has the definitive website about alchemy, he’s one of the greatest people who’ve made alchemy accessible to people via the internet. Adam began as a kind of Jungian thinking about alchemy and then if you read his autobiography he transitioned out of it. He ultimately said he came to really understand alchemy and he was like yeah, Jung got it all wrong and so he’s historically wrong.
AP: I’m more stereotypical and I love Jung, so…
JS: come on Angela back me up.
[Laughter]
AP: Well I think that the point of Jung not being historically accurate. He proposes a new methodology that has revealed to be very influential and very useful and it gave tools for magic Practitioners. So just like, you know, I have been talking lately a lot about the great influence that Crowley had on the contemporary esoteric milieu but Carl Jung, you know, without Jung I think, I’m not sure how we would have Paganism today or a certain way of interacting with the spirit world and even the practice of Magick and the way symbols are used and the way certain things are conceptualized, it’s very much rooted in Carl Jung. And so for me, I don’t see his value in the historicity of what he says and what he writes about but more in a developing a different methodology to approach those kinds of things and to give you tools so that you can explore. It’s not about gathering accurate knowledge on a specific historical fact, it’s more about giving you the tools to experience things in, you know, in an occult world in an occult sense in an esoteric sense. So, I see his contribution more in that sense, in the sense of allowing, yeah, just giving theoretical tools and even experiential tools because a lot of Practitioners find the Jungian system or aspects of Jungian psychology or Jungian theories extremely important in making sense of what they are experiencing. And that is, I think, quite important and I wouldn’t say that the inaccuracies in what he says about Alchemy have any detrimental impact in, you know, in that respect in the importance that he has had on Practitioners.
JS: Yes, I would definitely agree that he’s important. I literally have an allergy to Jung.
AP: Sorry about that but I did tell people that you and I tend to have opposite ideas.
JS: Great, I mean yeah, I have his books on my shelf. I think he’s yes, important for sure but it’s amazing, Angela how many, like, comments I get on my Alchemy episodes where people are like, hold on this is actually about trying to change metal. I’m like yeah, they were really trying to change metal. It’s only because they’ve ever heard a Jungian analysis of the texts and so…
AP: Yeah, but I would say that is more of a problem of people that, sort of, see in Jung something that is different, you know, they try to see a historicity that where… I don’t know.
JS: Yeah, or that – I guess what I would say is that I’m not opposed to the Jungian reading of Alchemy per se, what I’m opposed to is when that’s the only reading that’s actually out there.
AP: Yeah, I can see that and you also don’t like Foucault, so it makes complete sense to me that you wouldn’t like Jung.
JS: Yeah, no yeah, he betrayed Structuralism and went off. Same with the…
AP: You are a Historical Materialist and a Structuralist, so of course, you will not like Foucault and Jung.
JS: Or Nietzsche.
AP: And I love Nietzsche, so see, again we are the opposites.
JS: Yeah I, just like, you know, the Foucaultians and Nietzschians like, yeah we’re not doing history we’re doing genealogy. So you’re making up stuff and like…
AP: No, it’s not. It’s not about that. It’s not denying the importance of history, it’s about adding a new layer and seeing things from a different perspective as well. It doesn’t have to be a substitute, it can just be an addition to…
JS: I totally agree. If, you know, I totally agree. If I knew at least again I can speak for my graduate school experience if the Foucaultians, if the people who… I trust Foucault did his history. I don’t trust that often Foucaultians do good jobs with history.
AP: So you actually dislike more the followers of these thinkers than the thinkers themselves.
JS: Often yeah, I mean that’s I think that’s typically the way we justify our the way we don’t like stuff, yeah, this is a funny story you’ll appreciate just, Angela, when I was at the Bibliotheque Nationale, like doing some research. I was bored one day and I remember I just happened to remember this quote by Foucault where he said that he read every single medical document from the 18th century and I was like Foucault says crazy stuff like that. And so I just like went to the archives and just requested like random pieces of medical whatever and sure enough, they had been checked out by Foucault at some point in the late 50s and 60s. So…
AP: Wow you are obsessed with Foucault. You must like him at some level.
JS: It’s a secret unconscious… Which is funny because I like people sort of in the Nietzschean strain like I like Bataille but he’s like, much more of a sort of structuralist kind of version of Nietzsche but I don’t know. I don’t know about you but there’s so much pressure to be academically fashionable, to like you have to like certain kinds of thinkers and I never liked that. I always felt that pressure was really misguided and you know because Deleuze is all the rage now, everyone has to be Deleuzians or historical materialism is like out of fashion, so you can’t be that or I don’t know, I never liked that.
AP: Yeah, but you will bring it back to fashion.
JS: Really? The dark academia historical materialism.
AP: Yes. I’m not a historical materialist. So you, it’s your job it’s not something that I can do.
JS: There are very few of us out there, I think, these days.
AP: Well, I think that in Western Esotericism I would say that there is an appreciation of a very historical kind of approach.
JS: That’s true. I mean historical positivism I think is. There was a generation of that but I think that generation is passing away now. That won’t be true in 10 years.
AP: Yeah, I agree.
JS: So, Charlie asks where can I learn more about French Diabolism from the early modern period? This is something that’s funny because this is your interest in Satanism and where I would know about early modern stuff maybe a little more but I, aside from like the Gilles de Rais stuff and sort of the kind of rise of French Diabolism in the 19th century primarily, I don’t know.
AP: Yeah, I’m not sure about that either. I have a vague memory from a lecture for my Patrons but now I cannot really recall because I was going through the history of Satanism throughout Europe. But yeah, I’m afraid I can’t remember.
JS: Yeah, I guess I always… have you ever seen this image of the black mask with the guy holding the candles and it’s like a topless woman laid over an altar it’s like a very evocative. I think maybe it was in Eliphas Levi. It was like one of those images I saw as a kid and I was like, oh my God that’s so scary.
AP: Yeah, I love scary, those kinds of scary images.
JS: Old woodcuts, scary old woodcuts are the best.
Let’s see here. Someone else had a super chat question as well. Let me grab it.
Oflameo. Okay, is Alchemy the bridge between Physics and eroticism?
For some reason, I just imagined, like, Carl Sagan naked.
AP: Why though?
JS: You can’t help what you control, it’s the unconscious, it’s the id. I think alchemy is basically the pre-chemistry chemistry folks. I mean I’m in the hardcore historiography camp here. I don’t think it… I think that that’s neither physics nor eroticism so ma’am I mean that’s a very deflationary answer but I tend to be honest.
AP: Well, Crowley kind of saw an alchemical process in Jungian terms, in sex magic.
JS: That’s true.
AP: I’m not sure how that… well it may have to do with physics if you, I guess if you consider the physical fluids that are involved in this…
JS: Now you’re really reaching.
AP: But yeah, it’s a bit of a stretch to consider that physics, more biology I guess. So…
JS: Yeah, yeah although I think – didn’t Crowley… he met Jung once right? If I’m remembering that right. He met Jung or Freud. I think he met one of them I think he had a very low opinion. I mean I think Crowley had a low opinion of everyone that they’re basically…
AP: Yeah, Crowley had a low opinion of everybody apart from himself. I was just reading about… well he did like William James though.
JS: You could see that.
AP: So “The Variety of Religious Experiences.” So, I can’t remember whether he actually met Jung but he was interested in psychology.
JS: Now I’m seeing there the debate, in the chat is people, analytic philosophy people and Deleuzian people. I will say this about philosophy and this is, I don’t know what you think Angela, as I’ve gotten older the more – I’ve gotten more convinced by analytic philosophy. I’ve become more… I used to dislike it deeply but now as I’ve gotten older, I will…
AP: I’m still in the camp of not liking analytic philosophy as much, so I will have to see whether it changes over time. But so far it hasn’t changed.
JS: Yeah, I mean I don’t like a lot of it but I’ve gotten… there’s a new book out but not new, it’s been out for a couple of years. It’s an analytic philosopher’s take on the phenomenology of spirit which is really good. And I just like the fact that analytic philosophers are now taking up Nietzsche or Hegel when they used to look down their nose at that stuff and I just appreciate them doing that. And I think they do a good job of it.
AP: Yeah, I like any kind of philosophy to be fair, even logics which is a dreaded subject. Especially in Italy, it’s like a mandatory exam that you have to do and it is – you have the kind of mathematical kind of exam, a written exam where you have to turn sentences into the logical, I don’t know the English technical term, but…
JS: Right, here it’s very Balkanised. I mean you can do an entire PhD here in just an analytic department and you can do a whole PhD in just a continental department but never do either which I think is really bad for philosophy in general.
All right. Jason thanks for a couple of super chats. Any thoughts on Dylan Burns’s book the “Apocalypse of an Alien God?” You know I have not read it but I like Dylan I’ve met him a couple of times. We bonded over our shared love of Coptic which is the language that I love and I’ve not had the chance to read it. But it is on my shelf and it’s one of those things that I want to get to, so no I don’t have a strong, I don’t have any opinions about it but I know I really like Dylan and I like his work. And he’s based in Amsterdam now, so he’s a good guy and does really great work. So I’m looking forward to reading his book and I think he also has some interesting ideas about this whole, was there really Gnosticism debate. So I want to get into that as well.
AP: I haven’t read it either. So I’ve got to catch up.
JS: Gnosticism stuff is great. I like the gnostics, there’s like, there’s a part of me that really just deeply finds them cathartic to read. I just love the idea that this world is made by some bad entity that just, I don’t know, it tickles me.
Seraphim Winslow, thank you. Thoughts on Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, et cetera in the esoteric traditions?
AP: Gurdjieff, I’m not sure what the correct pronunciation is but I’ve heard it pronounced Gurdjieff or Gurdjieff but yeah, “The Fourth Way.” I think that I have to make a video on Gurdjieff at some point and Ouspensky. But so, what my thoughts are, I think, that they have been influential in certain aspects of Esotericism but not as much in Paganism or you know the kind of movements that I tend to study the most. They tend to be preferred by intellectuals and those that are more interested in ceremonial-magic kind of things or people interested in meditation because there is there is some of that. So it’s interesting, you know, they are both interesting characters and when it comes to mysticism and historicism. I shall make a video on that at one point.
JS: Yeah I think it’s much more in your wheelhouse than mine. It’s like my knowledge of esotericism is like good and good and good until it gets to the 20th century then it just plummets. Like I just know so little about what’s going on in the 20th century half the time.
Thank you for the super chat. Also folks just to FYI, I think we’re going to go just about an hour because I don’t want to take all of Angela’s time because it’s like Friday evening her time and near dinner time so I don’t want to keep her from dinner and I think it’s a crime you keep an Italian away from food for too long – you get in real trouble.
AP: I cannot deny it.
JS: I just don’t want anyone to send in a super chat that’s really close to the line, you know, that without us having time. So we’ll go for just about an hour, so it’s about eight more minutes. But thank you for the super chat, do you think there could be any relationship between Esotericism and artificial intelligence? I see things out there like the Phoenix Esoteric Society but I don’t know much about it.
AP: Oh, that’s interesting because I was invited to contribute on a project. He’s trying to actually investigate that but we don’t know yet if the project is actually happening because the principal investigator has applied for a grant for funding and so we will see. But yeah, there’s this French Anthropologist that is trying to put together scholars from different fields. So from, you know, studies in technology, artificial intelligence and me with, you know, with magic and Esotericism because they are trying to understand, you know, the overlaps between technology, magical thinking, Esotericism and how that could play a role in artificial intelligence and how, you know, these two worlds may communicate and allow us to under understand each other better. But to my knowledge, this study hasn’t happened yet, in the past. So there is a possibility that it might happen in the future and I might even be part of it. But we don’t know yet because getting grants is a bit difficult. But I know that if this French Professor gets the grant I will be part of the research team. So we will see whether we find a solution to this dilemma. But I think it will require a combined effort. It’s not something that a Religious Studies scholar can answer. You really need other experts from other fields that are actually, you know, working with artificial intelligence and new technologies to find a proper answer.
JS: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean could there be a relationship? But I think there absolutely could be. I think that what’s interesting would be the intersection between like channelling and artificial intelligence. Like so much of the idea that outside intelligence is giving people information is really, you know, it’s a perennial idea and religion and Western Esotericism in general. But the idea that there could be non-human intelligences that reveal things about ultimate reality or secrets about the universe. I can’t imagine that not coming from artificial intelligence and I, you know, I just think the idea of, yeah, I think that’s an interesting avenue for research and for experience. Angela, have you ever listened to any of the music that’s been generated by artificial intelligence?
AP: No, I haven’t but there is one of my Patrons who actually, for a job, he works on artificial intelligence. So yeah, how is the music that they produce?
JS: I mean so there’s a band that I like, it’s a black metal band based in New York called Krallice that makes like progressive black metal and they trained an artificial intelligence on Krallice. And Krallice is like notoriously progy, like weird time signatures and very long songs and things like that. And so they trained the artificial intelligence on Krallice and then the artificial intelligence learned to play Krallice-like music and they made a 24-hour YouTube channel of just the artificial intelligence creating 24-hour loops of this band’s music and I think they also have a 24-hour death metal artificial intelligence.
AP: Oh, wow.
JS: So you can just chime in at any point you like and listen to 24-hour whatever, you know.
AP: I will check it out.
JS: It’s very strange, it’s very strange. But now, I, yeah, I like Krallice a lot. That’s every time… I’ve been lucky that twice I’ve been to New York and twice they would happen to be playing. But to get to Williamsburg to go see them at St Peters or whatever it’s like a pilgrimage. But I guess that’s what you have to do to go see good metal.
All right, so Grand Master Glick left a really nice super chat so I’m going to leave it up I’m going to put it up but it’s like the most juvenile, it’s juvenile hermetic humour. But we can’t, if we can’t be juvenile at least sometimes then…
AP: Yeah Hermes Trismegistus walks into the club and sees the most beautiful redhead he’s seen. He goes up to her and whispers, as above…
[Laughter]
JS: I’m gonna make a short of you reading that. Just…
[Laughter]
JS: Have you not heard this one before I forget when I’ve… yeah, if you can’t have juvenile hermetic humour. Thank you, Grand Master Glick. It’d be funny if you said it in Latin but…
AP: Yeah this is the same, he’s the reincarnation of Crowley, isn’t he?
JS: Yeah so this is perfectly, this is actually further evidence he is in fact the reincarnation of Crowley because this is the exact kind of joke that Crowley would have told.
AP: Clearly Yes.
JS: I think this is evidence so you’re more convincing us Grand Master Glick.
AP: So let me know what you think of my videos on Crowley. Do they represent you well?
JS: So another super sticker. Thank you for six shekel. Yeah, the shekel symbol is also funny looking to me. Thank you for the super sticker. Yeah, maybe what I do if I started a black metal band then would make all the lyrics in Coptic, that would be, or all Latin there’s a pick. Enochian, just do the entire band, all the songs will be in an Enochian. That would be, that’d be cool. Thank you Cyberdelic Alchemy for the super sticker.
Let’s see. Harry Trenchman please ask Angela of her perception of the concept of Niddah. Have you heard of this concept like niddah is the Jewish concept of when a woman is menstruating and then she’s considered to be ṭumah, ritually unfit? This is one of these, like, pernicious ideas in orthodox Judaism.
AP: Interesting that this question comes today but yeah, it’s interesting because I guess that in contemporary Witchcraft and pagan Witchcraft it’s the opposite. So, of course, I’m more familiar with Paganism than I am with Judaism and in Paganism actually, when a woman is menstruating, she’s considered to be more powerful and menstrual blood can be used in practices, in magical practice of all sorts. You know, there are even folk magic practices in Italy with menstrual blood that is mixed with sugar and you put it in the coffee of a man that you want to fall in love with you. This is a very common thing.
JS: Very common, so be careful when you go out the coffee in Italy.
AP: No sorry, I phrased it badly. So it’s not common that people do it but it is known as something that is part of the folklore. So yeah, I would say that you know, in the kind of research that I do, the kind of movements that I research – when a woman is menstruating she’s more powerful and menstrual blood is sacred and can be used for magic. It’s actually a powerful tool and even in Crowley’s system of Magick, it is used even for sexual magick purposes.
JS: Yeah, the case of light and stuff. Yeah but yeah niddah is one of these, there’s always these very complicated rules about niddah in the Jewish law that are followed by Orthodox people and I think even some Liberal Jewish people are sort of trying to think about bringing them back in certain kinds of ways.
AP: So does it mean, does it mean that women cannot participate in religious ceremonies when they are menstruating?
JS: It’s, so, I mean technically it means ritually unfit. So it would mean that certain kinds of… while menstruating certain kinds of things they would, yeah, they would not be allowed – like women and men would be sleeping in separate beds and they would be in separate places even. In the Orthodox world and they have to go to the mikvah and the ritual immersion afterwards and this is also true after childbirth and stuff like this. Yeah, niddah is, yeah, the rituals around niddah are many and complicated. And this is also the reason why you’ll often see Orthodox men won’t shake hands with women just in the case that they might be menstruating. That’s the thing, yeah, I think it’s these ideas are deeply unfortunate.
Well, Grand Master Click is back. We should talk. Maybe Aleister Crowley. Might be Aleister Crowley.
All right folks, well I don’t want anyone else to put any super chats in because I want to make sure I can let Angela go, to go eat, go eat dinner and enjoy the rest of your evening. But the great thing Angela, about this, is that it’s really just fun to hang out with you and it’s really fun. Like, I don’t know, I really just love that we can just hang out and chat at least in this medium and yeah, just really appreciate you and appreciate the work you do and it’s just a lot of fun hanging out and laughing about Aleister Crowley.
AP: Yes and as above so below. And a new understanding of as above, so below.
S: You never know what you’re going to – you never know what you’re going to learn. I just like the idea of Hermes Trismegistus walking into a bar but it seems to be a whole genre of jokes.
AP: Yeah definitely. In my discord server for my Patrons there’s a text channel called “funny” and you know, there are lots of things like that that are quite funny. So I like that.
JS: There’s a… I saw a funny, someone, one of my patrons sent me a funny comic that had like this idea of when bad things are about to happen the moth-man shows up and there’s this young woman who’s about to, like, it’s like these bangs look great and then the moth-man appears in the background it’s hilarious. Yeah, occult humour it’s just really, really funny.
Yeah, Angela, thank you for hanging out with me and being my friend.
AP: And thank you Justin for inviting me and being my friend.
JS: And yeah sharing your knowledge with everyone just like, you know, it’s really… Folks are, yeah, folks – I’m sure folks are very thankful and they should be because you really do a wonderful job of providing access to the intersection of reliable peer-reviewed topics on the occult. Truly you do a great job and yeah, glad to know you and I appreciate your work. Folks go subscribe to Angela’s channel, go support her on Patreon. If you support my work you would also absolutely love Angela and we all could use support to keep the lights on and keep doing this work. So I really highly recommend going over to Angela’s channel, subscribe and become a member. You can do one-time donations you can support her on Patreon and I do because I really love her work and I really recommend that you do as well. So do the work of supporting the people that you care about and who provide you with excellent educational material like Angela does.
So all right Angela let’s sign off, go back behind the veil and yeah, like do during the invisibility magic.
But all right everybody. Thank you so much for hanging out with us and I’ll be on next week with my regular solo Q&A, so I’ll see you folks next week for that and hopefully, Angela will be happy to come back on and hang out again with me and you all sometime soon.
AP: Absolutely.
JS: Awesome, all right everybody.